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Nov 08
2009
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Finally, a ‘smoking gun’ in the Caylee Case?Posted by: Tim in Colorado on Nov 8, 2009 Tagged in: Untagged
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As the Anthony family hunkers down behind a theory of disproven leads and tired tips, alleged druggie friends and a nanny who exists only as code for Casey’s ex-fiancé, the State delivers a startling one-two counterpunch to the defense’s motions to dismiss
Remember the photos of the trash from Casey’s trunk? Did anything unusual or out of the ordinary make an impression on you? If you’re like me, probably not. We were all waiting to see if anything particularly incriminating might appear there, but it all seemed mundane and ordinary, and outside of proving that there was no rotting pizza as Cindy had claimed (only an empty pizza box), many of us might not have thought much of significance was to be found there. Wrong.
Present in that trash, as well as the trunk of Casey’s car itself, says the prosecution, were a large number of small flying insects of the scientific family classification phoridae, commonly referred to as coffin flies, which are known to feed on decomposition material. Specifically, the tiny, gnat-like flies were recovered from wadded-up paper towels in the trash, and forensic botanist Neal Haskell, who contributed to the State’s entomology report, wrote that “given the association of the towels with the car, it seems most likely that the paper toweling was used in an attempt to clean the decompositional fluids purged from the remains in the trunk of the car.”
Left: coffin fly (phoridae family classification); right: evidence photo of paper towels from trash found in Casey Anthony's trunk.
So damaging is this newly released evidence, says an article published over the weekend from Orlando TV station WESH-2, that it “may finally include the smoking gun prosecutors have been seeking since [Casey’s] arrest” (emphasis mine). But the State wasn’t done yet, delivering a second blow to the defense: they now say they found traces of chloroform in liquid inside a bottle of Cool Blue Gatorade and in a plastic syringe that were in a Disney bag recovered near the remains at the scene on Suburban Drive.

Left: evidence photos of chloroform-laced Gatorade bottle; right: evidence photos of syringe.
Maybe at least momentarily this will quell the recent spate of bravura issuing from the defense table. Just last week the defense filed another motion to dismiss the most serious charges against Casey, because, they said, the State failed to provide sufficient facts linking Casey to these crimes. In an interview segment in CBS Television’s 48 Hours Mystery on the Caylee Anthony case that aired just a couple of weeks ago, Casey Anthony defense attorney Todd Macaluso mustered sufficient temerity to state baldly that “there’s no evidence where the body was found that links the body to the Anthony home,” while fellow defense attorney Linda Kenney-Baden said the defense would be challenging the duct tape purported to be around Caylee’s mouth and told 48 Hours flatly, “Somebody else is the killer of this child.”
It was at that point—and I knew nothing then of these new revelations from the prosecution—that I wanted to retort, Now hold on there just a minute, Mr. Macaluso, Mrs. Kenny-Baden, have you (and 48 Hours) completely forgotten about the special white canvas laundry bag in which Caylee’s remains were found, which had a mate in the Anthonies’ home? Are we talking about the same evidence here? In my view, this laundry bag could turn out to be the strongest link from the remains to the Anthony home.

Left: evidence photo of white Whitney Design laundry bag in which Caylee's remains were discovered; right: tag from laundry bag.
Although the duct tape and the heart sticker adhesive residue may have been mishandled by FBI lab personnel—and direct DNA and/or blood evidence may not have survived the flooding that took place in the summer of 2008 in the swampy wooded area adjacent to Suburban Drive or the subsequent scattering of bones in that area by animal predators—it is not impossible that hair or fiber evidence could have been recovered from the laundry bag, or even still could be now. Evidently prosecutors considered photos of the laundry bag (including a label showing its manufacture by Whitney Design of Bridgeton, Missouri) important enough to include with photos of the Gatorade Cool Blue bottle and the syringe in the latest round of discovery releases.
And speaking of that bottle: even if the defense successfully challenges the presence of chloroform by claiming it is a natural byproduct of decomposition (By the way, can anything be said to be “natural” when it is associated with the decomposition of the body of a murdered two-year-old girl? Just asking.), the question remains, for what other purpose could the syringe serve?
Maybe I’ve watched too many CSI episodes on TV; but, upon hearing about the laundry bag, the syringe and the sports drink laced with chloroform, my mind jumped to questions about the manufacture and purchase of these items: Can they be traced to particular lots of manufacture, or to store receipts or security camera footage, which can be linked up with their acquisition by Casey or a friend or a member of the Anthony family? My guess is that law enforcement is already miles ahead in trying to gather and analyze whatever information on this there may be, and we may simply need to be patient once more and see how this all plays out.
Meanwhile, what does the defense and the Anthony family offer as an alternate theory of the crime? I was reading through the transcript of Lee Anthony’s July 30 (2009) deposition by Assistant State Attorney Frank George, and what emerges is that Lee and his parents have developed a theory that still places credence in a nanny named Zenaida Gonzalez—although Lee says, along with his mother, that he thinks “Zanny” or “Zenaida” could be code for someone else, whom he assumes could be the nefarious Jesse Grund.

Lee Anthony deposed (February '09 deposition in Zenaida Gonzalez civil case).
Lee and Cindy evidently also still put faith in the tip received early on that Caylee may have been seen boarding a plane at the Atlanta airport with someone matching the description of Jesse Grund’s mother and another tip purporting to place Caylee in a pickup truck in Atlanta with someone vaguely matching the description of Jesse. (You will recall that Orange County Sheriff’s investigators interviewed the airport tipster, Wanda Wery, and produced the manifest from the flight she thought she might have seen Caylee board, which had no one matching Caylee’s description.) The Anthonies tie in this doubtful tip with information from Jesse (announced in a July 10, 2008 Facebook entry, from most accounts I could find—I couldn’t confirm whether he actually did or not) that he was moving away from the Orlando area to Georgia in August of 2008.
To be significant or damaging to the prosecution’s case, however, this more or less assumes that Caylee would still be alive and living in Georgia or some other remote place by way of there. And, of course, the defense team would have to explain why, when the child was supposedly spirited away to a remote locale (Casey told her parents from jail to have authorities look in New York, North Carolina and Puerto Rico, among other places), Caylee’s remains would end up after all only a block away from the Anthony home. With an affirmative case as thin as this one appears, it seems likely the defense will go negative, trying to punch holes in the State’s affirmative case rather than actually explaining Caylee’s disappearance.
Even though Amy Huizenga helped Cindy find Casey and was an apparent fellow victim of Casey’s alleged thievery right along with Cindy, the Anthony family, with information evidently provided by crack private investigator Dominic Casey, now accuses Amy and former Casey beau Ricardo Morales not only of being into pot (which is somewhat believable), but also into heroin. I do not doubt that when Amy appears on the stand to testify in both the fraud and murder cases, Baez and company will launch a no-holds-barred, all-out assault on her credibility on this basis.

Targets for defense impeachment? Prospective prosecution witnesses Amy Huizenga (left) and Roy Kronk (right).
In another recent development, Orange County employee Roy Kronk, who discovered Caylee’s remains along Suburban Drive not far from the Anthony home, was terminated from employment. According to a recent report from WOFL-FOX35’s Holly Bristow, the reason was that Kronk had been reassigned from his duties as a meter reader to those of an inventory specialist with the county, but he didn’t appear for work, for reasons Kronk’s attorney, David Evans, says have to do with an injury sustained at a county warehouse. Bristow reports that Kronk had been on family leave, but that his leave time expired around the first of October, evidently resulting in his termination. In my view, the significance of this development for the Caylee case is that it may leave Kronk, like Huizenga, vulnerable to character impeachment by the defense.
As Mrs. Kenny-Baden stated, the defense appears ready to challenge the duct tape evidence, and it appears to me that in this “corrupted” evidence, they feel that they may have the equivalent of the bloody glove in the O.J. Simpson case. Only time will tell if they can use this or witness impeachment to create enough reasonable doubt to offset the State’s “smoking gun” evidence released this week, and make the case that if the evidence doesn’t fit, the jury must acquit.

written by JackieB, Sun 08 Nov 2009 18:27:34 MST
written by artnut12345, Sun 08 Nov 2009 20:05:08 MST
imo, the DEFENSE is JAMMED UP when Todd M. stood up in court & said they had evidence that someone else put Caylee's body at the dump site. Todd M. presented their DEFENDSE! LD Burdick jumped on that statement like a dog on a bone.
The DEFENSE has to give reciprocal evidence to the STATE just like the STATE gives to the defense. Thus far, the Defense has surrendered One page with one name on it as to who the Defense would be calling to testify.
The STATE filed a MOTION, & now, besides being stuck with the NON Existement Nanny, the DEFENSE has until Feb. 1, 2010 to present the evidence as to who put Caylee at the dump site, as well as ALL the names/addresses/phone numbers.
jmo, the evidence the STATE has accumulated will overwhelm the Defense. They might argue a point or two, but, Lie after Lie told by KC, no nanny, partying for 31 days, tattoos, is more than the defense can create "REASONABLE Doubt" for. jmo.
written by DebB, Sun 08 Nov 2009 21:57:29 MST
written by DebB, Sun 08 Nov 2009 22:03:26 MST
written by DebB, Sun 08 Nov 2009 22:10:13 MST
I still think he was somewhat involved with Anthonys even if remotely , but you know the saying you run with dogs you will get fleas, the very friends the defense will tear down surely will show Casey's character if only by association alone,
these are after all people she deemed good enough to b e around her daughter and if she knew heroine and pot was going on why take her child there no matter how they play it she looks bad and with looking bad comes much judgment.
I don't see how they can explain the paper towels, I have been waiting to see what entomology had to say now I know and it sounds damaging, that one lone fingerprint still stays in my head also did you noticed some of this was not processed till July 2009 which would explain why we have not gotten it till now.
They will take their own sweet time she played them took advantage of their good will by leading them knowingly on goose chases her Mother did her best to cover for her the hairbrush incident alone could wind Cindy up in prison who knows if they will actually prosecute her later on for that.
Cindy knew what she was doing when she did it.
Good blog Tim I love your writing.
written by Heike, Sun 08 Nov 2009 23:12:25 MST
Thank you for this excellent contribution...that title got my heart pumping!! I do seem to recall a mention somewhere of this fly and researching that it was most commonly found in decomposition? Buried in the discovery? Am I dreaming? :-) Are these flies ever discovered without decomposition? Unfortunately, it seems so:
http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/environment/insects/public_health/Humpback+Or+Coffin+Flies.htm
However, they are "known" for feeding on decomposition. Having read this article, it looks like the defense could argue that they were there due to the trash.
I have also always felt the laundry bag(s) matching is a key piece of evidence...when accumulated with the rest. What are the freaking chances? I do not know, but I am sure the State is working on that.
The Gatorade and the syringe....OMG, that is huge? WOuld chloroform naturally develop there? Why a syringe...in a Disney bag, is definitely a connection.
Oh my, is it to much to ask for one tiny piece of a fingerprint or DAN on these items! Grrrrrr.....maybe to come.
I defintitely believe that the State is confident for a reason. We already have more that they did on Scott Peterson.
I think Amy & Kronk are totally innocent, but sure they will go for reasonable doubt wherever they can. So far it sounds like we are in for a Bozo circus!
Thanks again Tim.
Cheers to all!
xoxo
Heike
written by Krisam, Mon 09 Nov 2009 08:30:59 MST
written by peacegirl, Mon 09 Nov 2009 08:37:39 MST
written by Krisam, Mon 09 Nov 2009 08:42:04 MST
written by cherylz, Mon 09 Nov 2009 11:08:15 MST
written by CritterFan1, Mon 09 Nov 2009 11:32:52 MST
written by dh27, Mon 09 Nov 2009 11:56:13 MST
written by Curious Dee, Mon 09 Nov 2009 11:57:27 MST
Long time, no read! Welcome back. This is a great topic. I went directly to the etiomology doc and I found the coffin flies interesting too. I'll be back with more on that. But like you, I always thought the laundry bag was the clincher, putting the perp in the Anthony home and also at the burial site, but adding the coffin flies is the forensic proof. I get it.
Oh my..don't ya hate the Sunshine Law? Wasn't chloroform the talk of the town for weeks? Weeks before Caylee was found? In a normal investigation, like in states of TX or LA, no one would have known about the chloroform searches or that it was found in the trunk too. This would be very damning information and maybe it still is. I'm just playing devil's advocate here because when you think of all of the protestors and concerned citizens, it's a possibility. Why would a murderer leave the murder weapon with the body one block away? Along with the designer laundry bag matching back to the Ant's house..and everything else. I think it's best if the PA leaves out the syringe w/testosterone if possible. It may just be an incidental finding along with all of the other garbage out there. How close was it to the gatorade/chloroform bottle? Just wonderin..
written by Krisam, Mon 09 Nov 2009 12:09:15 MST
Once is odd, two times is a coincidence, but three times is a pattern!!!!
1. Chloroform computer search conducted at the Anthony home
2. Chloroform in KC’s trunk with evidence of Caylee’s decomposing body
3. Chloroform at one of the crime scenes, where Caylee’s remains were found
There is an affirmative link with the chloroform, and it all leads back to KC!! KC’s home computer, KC’s trunk, and KC’s daughter!!!!
written by cherylz, Mon 09 Nov 2009 12:19:29 MST
KC was a purely "into herself" person. She put her daughter's body close to her home, with the laundry bags, garbage bags, etc... that tie in to her residence. She wasn't trying to conceal anything...or else she would have buried the evidence, including her daughter. She carelessly put everything at the site, including the murder weapon, and walked away to start her "beautiful life".
Well, it certainly will never be a beautiful life now.
written by dh27, Mon 09 Nov 2009 12:29:19 MST
written by Curious Dee, Mon 09 Nov 2009 12:39:27 MST
written by JackieB, Mon 09 Nov 2009 12:42:23 MST
Strong "assumption" on my part, but my other thought is Casey "helping" herself to one of Jesse's needles when she visited him to take a shower - that or brother Lee. Both (from photos) lead me to think they "might" work out. The other fella's, well I doubt they even know what a workout is. Needles might be self explanatory (if any of Casey's friends used them for recreational purposes,) but to have traces of testosterone in them is an entirely different ballgame.
Another one of those "wait and see's" I suppose to see if this bottle containing the syringe is key evidence.
written by Curious Dee, Mon 09 Nov 2009 12:52:56 MST
I agree with your logic. Three times is a pattern. I like that you're not complicating this with personality disorders and planning.
I read your post on the other thread. You said, it's simple, KC wanted to hurt Cindy and she killed Caylee to do it. It was out of rage. None of this was thought out, except that she would use chloroform as the weapon. I'm following you with this in mind. I'll see where it takes me. But so far, all I know is "I don't know KC" I've read she's a liar and a theif. This I believe to be true only because it is documented in conversations between Cindy and her mother Shirley Pleasea via emails.
As for as KC being a liar to her friends. I reflect back to my life and think this. Haven't we all had a friend who lied alot and everyone just accepted it. No one really believed this person. I know I've known a people who were just like that. I think this was KC.
written by Curious Dee, Mon 09 Nov 2009 13:06:40 MST
GA on steroids! Scary thought..lol Yes, he does look the type who worries about his appearance and "other things" I would think. But the problem with finding out who is using it is a tough task. Steroids are sold on the streets, just like recreational Rx drugs are. Does CA have access to steroids? They are used for so many different things. I've been prescribed Prednisone after having bronchitis. Just sayN.
written by Curious Dee, Mon 09 Nov 2009 13:17:53 MST
IIRC, chloroform has to be stored in a certain way and it loses it's potency after a short period of time.
As to the possible (testosterone) steroid injection, hmm, What if the state has the vial of testosterone from the Anthony home??? OHHH..
What if the gatorade bottle has Dna on it...and better yet, what if it's Caylee's Dna?? We'll see at trial.
written by Krisam, Mon 09 Nov 2009 13:29:06 MST
Curious- I know you still have doubt, but is it reasonable doubt?? I think it is time for you to vote no doubt in your mind KC murdered Caylee!!! LOL Just Kiddin!!!
written by Curious Dee, Mon 09 Nov 2009 13:31:50 MST
Sorry for the typo, sometimes I get lost in the details. The above post should have been addressed to you.
Btw, welcome back. I haven't seen you in awhile.
written by Lexiwrites, Mon 09 Nov 2009 13:35:29 MST
written by Curious Dee, Mon 09 Nov 2009 13:48:20 MST
I agree Krisam.
written by Krisam, Mon 09 Nov 2009 14:20:36 MST
written by Lexiwrites, Mon 09 Nov 2009 15:16:53 MST
written by Krisam, Mon 09 Nov 2009 15:31:20 MST
written by Krisam, Mon 09 Nov 2009 15:34:50 MST
I am sure you are writing another masterpiece with the latest documents!!! Take Care!!!
written by CritterFan1, Mon 09 Nov 2009 15:54:51 MST
written by Curious Dee, Mon 09 Nov 2009 17:33:54 MST
Was the needle still intact on the syringe? And was the bottle cap screwed on? I'm curious because a friend of mine who is diabetic took a shot at my house once. When she finished she dropped it in a coke bottle and screwed on the cap before throwing it away. She said this was an accepted way of disposing of the needle. Could this be just garden variety trash that someone dumped there?
written by dh27, Mon 09 Nov 2009 18:46:00 MST
Why would anyone else have syringe with chloroform? Chloroform isn't a very common thing for people to use.
written by JackieB, Mon 09 Nov 2009 18:52:25 MST
When it first came out about the bottle (long ago, but just no details,) I too thought it was just trash someone discarded along the way. The fact that it's in a disney bag did not necessarily throw any red flags my way because it is Orlando. They're probably as common as Walmart bags are around here.
Having said that, let me be the FIRST to admit I have not done my "homework" on the last doc dump and I am relying on all of my blogging buddies to fill me in.
This syringe and bottle thingy is now nagging at me and hopefully someone has the answer to save my eyesight and sanity.
Is it an "assumption" on our part that the syringe and bottle are directly connected to the case or is there something in the docs stating it is relevant?
Anyone know so I don't have to read the docs?
written by CritterFan1, Mon 09 Nov 2009 19:57:53 MST
written by JackieB, Mon 09 Nov 2009 20:41:24 MST
No, JackieB, it's not merely an assumption on our part. The State's official entomology report claims relevance for the recovery of the coffin flies (see the comment of report author Neal Haskell above); and the investigation of the Gatorade bottle and syringe is set forth in an FBI lab report completed this past June ('09).
Thanks Tim! Now I can go forth with more "speculations." Was just a little leary of posting some thoughts without someone confirming they are relevant.
written by JackieB, Mon 09 Nov 2009 20:54:49 MST
Given light of this new development, I have been rendered practically speechless - at least for the moment.
For the past year (ever since precious Hailee's remains were found,) I have tried to come up with scenarios of this being an accidental death. The layers of duct tape on her tiny little mouth and nostrils slapped me into reality and for the first time I actually believed there was a possibility that precious Caylee's death was intentional.
With the release of this evidence, there is little doubt in my mind that this was NOT an accident - I just simply can't grasp at this time, however, how anyone - especially a mother - can intentionally take the life of their beautiful little (almost) three year old daughter and behave the way Casey has been behaving! Not only that, but I can't even "go there" in what precious little Caylee must have gone through in the final minutes of her life.


Just can't go there right now...
written by Heike, Tue 10 Nov 2009 00:11:56 MST
My brain tends to separate the speculation from the facts; I think the facts of this new evidence are:
1)There was chloroform found in the gatorade bottle and syringe, and testosterone in the syringe, in the bottle, found "near" Caylee's remains.
2)These were found in a Disney Bag
3)There were coffin flies found in the paper towels in the trunk of Casey's car.
Now my thoughts:
1) The circumstantial weight of the chloroform in both the bottle and syringe, together, presented as being the liquid drawn into the syringe...is powerful when also presented with the other chloroform evidence as noted. The testorsterone present is a factor that can only lead to speculation at this point. How "near" to Caylees's remains was the bottle found? Was it in the primary dumping site, 10 feet away, 20, 50? Assuming that it is related to Caylee's death, it supports the concept that I have had since Caylee's remains were found, that the dumping was an act of desperation, choosing a site that would implicate her, but was simply convenient, allowing connections to her home, a sloppy desperate act. And to dump the bottle there, would follow that there was no analytical process of protecting herself. Minute by minute thinking, get through the next minute and that is it. The same as the wild goose chase, very indicative of her disorder. Will there be more than cirtcumstantial evidence to link this to Caylee's murder? I do not think we need it, but am wondering if there is?
2) The Disney bag is defintitely circumstantial...do we know if they visited Disney recently before her death? As was mentioned, it is only an elusive tie to having a murdered child. Would a guy taking testosterone based supplements,(could any of that create chloroform, no idea) be dumping this in a Disney bag...it is possible...but seems far less likely? Circumstantial weight is there, but minimal.
3) I think the coffin flies are big evidence, and yet based on what I have learned about them, they are not absolute proof; they add an element of weight to all of the circumstantial evidence.
Having said all of that, I have always felt and still feel that the MAJOR forensic evidence, the biggest smoking gun that is not circumstantial that we have is the hair showing decomposition and being either Caylee's, Casey's or Cindy's (or maybe the grandmother's). They are all alive, Caylee is dead. Why is it that this MASSIVE evidence seems to fall by the wayside in discussions of the smoking gun? I would consider this the foundation of which all other factual and circumstantial evidence could be built upon? This puts a dead Caylee in the trunk of that car with more certainty than any other factor? Add the chloroform and the witness accounts of the smell and the dogs hitting on the trunk and the coffin flies....and all of the behavior and the evidence linking the remains site to the house...I just see this as a slam dunk?
But yes, I was positioned with a glass of champagne in my hand when the verdict was read for the OJ trial and so the possibility is frightening...but I just do not see the defense as having a case, based on how Casey has already crucified herself?
What a journey...cheers guys!
xoxo
Heike
written by Heike, Tue 10 Nov 2009 00:15:48 MST
written by Tim in Colorado, 7:29:25 pm MST
JackieB: Is it an "assumption" on our part that the syringe and bottle are directly connected to the case or is there something in the docs stating it is relevant?
No, JackieB, it's not merely an assumption on our part. The State's official entomology report claims relevance for the recovery of the coffin flies (see the comment of report author Neal Haskell above); and the investigation of the Gatorade bottle and syringe is set forth in an FBI lab report completed this past June ('09).
Tim, I have heard of the coffin flies in the trunk, but not on the bottle, they were there too? Wow. Wow.
xoxo
Heike
written by Curious Dee, Tue 10 Nov 2009 01:07:41 MST
Thank you very much. The picture is fine. It looks like a capped syringe, but I'm not sure if the needle's still attached or its just capped over the syringe. I guess I better get busy..Now it's my turn to read.
This is where I was going..If the needle was still attached to the syringe then that might mean it was used for injecting into skin, but if not the syringe would be consistent with administering a liquid to a baby like alot of mothers do. I think the needle would be a good source for Dna too if it was still attached.
Just wondering..
written by cherylz, Tue 10 Nov 2009 06:37:43 MST
So obvious to me: comp. searches for chloroform, chloroform in the trunk that also had a hair w/ deathband on it belonging to Caylee, dead baby w/ bottle w/ chloroform nearby. It screams murder-premeditated.
written by stocirpa, Tue 10 Nov 2009 12:38:06 MST
However, the FBI Laboratory Work Sheet dated 1/29/09 (pre-numbered pages 10210-10219) corrected its earlier inaccurate release by making it clear that two similar but differently shaped laundry bags had been retrieved by the FBI.
The Q84 laundry bag was identified as an item that the FBI had retrieved from the Medical Examiner's Office (page 10210), and the K33 laundry bag was identified as an item that the FBI had retrieved from Casey's vehicle (page 10219).
A description of each of these laundry bags can be found in the TEU Exam Notes dated 2/9/09 (pre-numbered pages 10220-10227) which were released with the Work Sheet.
The Q84 laundry bag (page 10221) is described as a "fabric laundry-type bag with a round, rigid opening - 24" tall with an ~18" diameter top . . . Whitney Design, Inc. ..."
The K33 laundry bag (page 1022
is described as a laundry bag with rigid rectangular top opening ~20" x 12", and is ~12" tall . . . Whitney Design, Inc. ..." I offer this as incontrovertible proof that the "special white canvas laundry bag" identified as Q84 (round in shape) that had been retrieved by the FBI from the Medical Examiner's Office is the "bag" in which Caylee's remains had been found. It is unknown what, if anything, was contained in the K33 "bag" (rectangular in shape) that had been retrieved by the FBI from Casey's car.
written by Curious Dee, Tue 10 Nov 2009 18:34:16 MST
If you wish to store chloroform, use a brown glass bottle only to prevent radiation making it turn to phylogeny quicker. Also, make sure the bottle is filled all the way up, because chloroform reacts with Oxygen. You can only store the chloroform for a week or so however, because it will eventually decompose.
After reading all of the steps it takes to make chloroform I can't picture KC (barely a HS grad) going thru all of the steps to make true chloroform. If it was found in a brown glass bottle similiar to a cough medicine bottle it would seem more likely. That being said, I think what was found in the gatorade bottle w/syringe is similiar to something that was made up with "cleaning a crime scene in mind". Maybe the syringe was used to get into the small spots.
Bleach, we all know what bleach can do. It kills bacteria and is used to a household sanitizer. Does it destroy DNA? It might or might not, but hydrogen peroxide probably would as I know I've used it to get blood stains out of my scrubs many times. I read if bleach or peroxide were used it could cause havoc to a scientist when trying to lift DNA. (This reminds me of what happened when scientists tried to lift a print from the heart shaped sticker. It disintergrated) Maybe the homemade concoction caused this, IDK. I'm definitely not a scientist.)
Acetone: Familiar household uses of acetone are as the active ingredient in nail polish remover and as paint thinner and sanitary cleaner/nail polish remover base. It is a common building block in organic chemistry. In addition to being manufactured, acetone also occurs naturally, even being biosynthesized in small amounts in the human body.
As to harming Dna, I found it could enhance a DNA finding because it somehow isolates it. Maybe she didn't know that..
My knowledge of acetone is its used in hospitals to clean instruments and remove fingernail polish when we can't get a good reading from a pulse-oximeter because the patient is wearing fingernail polish. That means KC wouldn't need to go to a hardware store to get acetone because it's found it many fingernail polish removers which I'm sure she had lying around the house.
I remember KC telling Annie D. when asked about the chemicals found in the trunk. She simply said it was cleaning fluids. I believe this. I believe she had a small amount of CSI knowledge and concocted some household cleaners she found around the house to try and clean the smelly trunk and whatever else she had to clean.
She may have even searched chloroform to see what it could be used for other than "Win them over" as in Ric Morales mySpace post.
Bottomline; I don't think chloroform was used to murder Caylee. I think the chemicals found in the gatorade bottle was used as a santitizer for KC or just a decent way to dispose a dirty needle. Jmo
written by cherylz, Tue 10 Nov 2009 20:02:24 MST
With all due respect are you kidding...maybe trying to rile up some emotions in Re: this case? Why do you discount all of the evidence? Please tell us...Caylee was murdered ...who do you think killed Caylee?
Why does everything lead back to her own mother?
I am baffled. Please give us some insight.
written by Krisam, Tue 10 Nov 2009 21:46:50 MST
Curious, I like your blogs, you keep members blogging!! I am starting to think you are on the payroll!! LOL
written by Heike, Tue 10 Nov 2009 23:31:47 MST
Thank you for your thorough response; I have been thinking many of the same things. The one thing that threw a twist to me was that article I read (linked last night, in my recollection, proposed that coffin flies were most prevalent on a (sorry) dried body, so that had me wondering. But if your resaerch shows that they are normally in the beginning stages, then that adds a lot more value.
As far as the laundry bag, my memory is that there was a match at the Anthony home, but I bow to all of the experts here, as it has been months since i have been able to spend the kind of time it takes to keep track of every detail.
I do so admire that from everyone here that does so, as I know what it takes.
Thank you for all of the information!
xoxo
Heike
written by Curious Dee, Wed 11 Nov 2009 03:02:07 MST
I have been baffled all along by the chloroform indications since the beginning. It just doesn't make sense to me. (of course, what has??)
So I'm not surprised at the chemist's report on this Gatorade bottle. I think it's a mixture of different types of cleaning fluids that has morphed into some type of chloroform. As I quoted in my above post, chloroform decomposes in a week and that's when it's stored properly. This bottle has been outdoors for quite some time. Maybe at one time it was full fledged chloroform and what's left is a just small percent, like the independent chemist confirmed. What's left is less than what's found in tap water. That’s not saying a lot.
But in all honesty, I've never heard of chloroform getting as much attention in any case like this one and it's because of the internet searches. Hopefully, the scientists aren't getting tunnel vision here and put too much into it. If they don't know how Caylee died, then it's best just to say KC was responsible because she's the last person to see her.
I think there's enough circumstantial evidence to convict KC if the jury doesn't get distracted by tiny pieces of forensic science and speculation for a motive. Sometimes there isn't a motive in a murder trial. Sometimes there is no weapon. But that doesn't mean there won't be a conviction.
written by Curious Dee, Wed 11 Nov 2009 04:12:59 MST
I'm not purposely trying to rile anyone up. All I did was state my opinion and why. I backed it up with fact and a heart felt opinion. What's wrong with that?
As it turned out, I wasn't that far off considering what Tony Pipitone reported. I don't get any enjoyment about shooting the chloroform issue down. You've probably read my posts in the past and I've never quite caught on to the chloroform theory. That's true. I'll stand by that until it's substantiated otherwise.
I believe it's found in the trunk and around Caylee because it was used to clean off evidence. It may have worked. Don't you find it incrediable that no DNA or fingerprint has been found. I do.
I ask myself this. Why is it that there's so much circumstantial evidence that KC did this yet there's no forensic proof? I think she must have had help.
But don't get upset yet because we still don't know why the state charged her with 1st degree murder. They must have something. If not, it was just a bold stand to get KC to confess or take a plea deal.
I've been reading true crime books for over 30 years and know how prosecutors work. They either have it all or don't have much. We'll see. I want them to have it because if Casey walks I think I will become physically sick. Literally. So please don't think I'm the enemy here. Okay?
Thanks
written by DebB, Wed 11 Nov 2009 10:17:31 MST
Exposed to the elements, bodies first pass the “fresh stage,” when the body is still fairly intact. As bacteria consume flesh, the body essentially passes from a solid to a liquid. Eventually all that is left is connective tissues and bones, “and then it stops smelling.”
Dying indoors prolongs the process, Ms. Roach said. “You die on a bed or carpet, it lingers,” she said. “It’s not like the great outdoors where you get broken quickly and return to soil. You become a cleaning issue. In nature, you don’t, because there are creatures — everybody from bacteria to insect life to the wolf – who are happy. It’s a big feast, and there’s not much left. If you die in New York City, you’re left to the guys in the haz-mat suits.”
written by Curious Dee, Wed 11 Nov 2009 13:27:24 MST
I think I'm going to read that book. I don't think there's any doubt that Caylee was at some point in the trunk. The odor was strong enough to detect on July 15th. So what does that mean?
written by DebB, Wed 11 Nov 2009 14:40:58 MST
I can answer you from my experience with dead bodies, and hopefully the thought police will not attack me lol
the lady in that states unless you die on on fabric see that carpet or bedding.
A man who died in an apartment we redid the apartment but the odor was still there on the tiles the metal of the ceiling ac unit etc and in the duct work it was in the walls when you painted and replaced the flooring it still smelled tho one would think when they removed his body it helped the odor right?
wrong it did not help it that much it removed very slightly some of the odor and he had only been there a week the odor is left by fluids and grease that comes from the body,
its like trying to remove skunk spray it has a oil residual and will not go away until it dissipates but and here is the big thing the body outside on the ground would have immediately aired and insects would have done their jobs with removing all that was there a body turns to skeleton in nine days in that kind of weather, and as they ate what they should eat the smell would have went away.
It would have lingered in carpet fibers plastic rubber cloth etc which is what it did do, her body substance that leaked away from her decomposing body as she liquidized would have left a trail in the trunk, and one thing I remember doing as a child was placing a gallon jug outside in the heat to watch the water escape thru the plastic at the bottom plastic is water proofed to an extent but not as much as Casey needed, then she would have had to lift that body up and move it out of her trunk I still say at this point someone had to have helped her, it would have been like removing a water bed that size awkward and hard to do but I guess she could very well have done it, I am sure you have seen a decomposing animal on the side of the road how they swell then split open, and not produce such a horrible smell that you cannot pull up next to it at red light and yet let a cat die under your house and it runs you all out of it, the mass amounts of oxygen help clear the air as the fatty tissue rises the particles move on but trapped in something they would stick like glue to surfaces such as a lid of trunk or the floorboards of your house.
Now back to the man who died in his apartment that was 2007 months later you could still get hints of it and it had been painted three times and redone retiled completely.
Which means some where the tissue the grease the oils remained.
It saddens me so deeply every time I think of that baby Caylee , how no one in her family chose her in the end when the stakes were high no one chose her.
written by Curious Dee, Wed 11 Nov 2009 20:00:25 MST
I understand and I know how terrible a decomposing body can be. Not exactly first hand knowledge, but I'm familiar with the stories such as yours.
When you mentioned the book you're reading, I wanted to know if it was possible that the body was put in the trunk closer to June 24th than June 17th, therefore the odor peaking on June 27th when KC ditched the car. Just wondering.
But I agree with you on one point, she had help in the cover up.
written by Curious Dee, Wed 11 Nov 2009 23:10:20 MST
It disturbs me to think that the FBI has misinformed us again. I'm reading a few too many discrepancies in their reports as of late.
One, is the duct tape that is said to have had a heart shaped sticker on top of it. This is from doc dump May 1st.
This was from the FBI Lab dated Dec22, 08. This is what it read:
The following items were received in the Questioned Documents Unit on December 22, 2008:
ITEMS FROM MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE:
Q62-Q64 Tape
This report contains the results of the questioned document examinations.
Results of Examination;
The Q62 through Q64 pieces of tape were examined for the presence of any stickers. No sticker fragments were observed on these items.
Remarks:
The submitted specimens will be returned under separate cover.
Digital images of specimens Q62 through Q64 are retained.
This was signed by Lorie L. Gottesman of the FBI.
I guess Ms Gottesman has some explaining to do. Here it says no sticker fragments were observed. It also says digital images were taken.
Even if I accept that this was an initial observation and later something was found, I can't accept the report that says no images were taken.
I may be mistaken here but I recall discussing this when it was revealed the heart sticker disintegrated while trying to lift a print in the September doc dump.
I might be wrong but if the evidence isn't there then they shouldn't create it. It's not necessary.
Just like I caught this, I'm sure the defense has too. It just doesn't look good.
Maybe I'm wrong and I hope I am.
written by DebB, Wed 11 Nov 2009 23:22:23 MST
the Mary Roach was a article you can read online the entire thing.
I think she may have parked her car during its peak , she borrowed her boyfriends or stayed around house, I think she dumped her car when she realized the smell was not going to leave I think she needed time to think and her plan was to say that she had been kidnapped or allow her parents to assume that once car was stolen and then say Caylee disappeared during that time which would explain both absences.
the odor would have bee just as a strong the third day as it was the thirtieth day, the odor is the waxy oily substance that excretes from human bodies, it would not dissipate because it had not gone off to be vaporized by nature it was embedded in the fibers and padding of the trunk,
George opened that bag looked inside the smell would have been atrocious in that bag HE KNEW and I think that's why he hesitated then threw it away
had they smelled death and not suspected Casey they would have immediately called police to come help them.
written by DebB, Wed 11 Nov 2009 23:23:33 MST
written by DebB, Wed 11 Nov 2009 23:28:35 MST
written by Heike, Thu 12 Nov 2009 01:10:36 MST
I cannot see anyone being motivated enough to help her. Or her being willing to share her deed with anyone. All of the behaviors of close family and friends, early on, showed shock and disbelief as far as her capacity to harm Caylee. In hindsight, of course, people focus on the potential signs that would never lead them there as they occur. For the A's, I think that the reality of that smell is what sent them into denia, it is the horror of a situation that does that. I think the biggest goal was to find Casey and Caylee, a higher priority than anything. And the behaviors once there was no Caylee were not of someone in a conspiracy? You do not call 911 in a panic if you are part of such a crime crime...you spirit your daughter off to God knows where and try to hide the fact that Caylee is missing? Logic, interpretation of behavior and instinct tell me that there is no way in hell the family had a part in this. Amy's experience with Cindy when finding Casey was clearly that she was genuinely distraught and in a panic and totally focused on finding Caylee.
The one thing that I always connect to is that they COULD NOT comprehend Casey killing Caylee as a possibility, so they searched for every other possibility. Even in the early interviews, where Cindy is pushing possible blame elsewhere, it seems as if she is genuinely perplexed and trying to to figure out who and how and why could be involved. Casey was not an option to them as they watched her love Caylee, again by all accounts, she was loving to Caylee and no one saw any thing like this coming.
So, on the someone helping her actually dispose of Caylee issue, I just ask, who would? We can judge the family's odd and seemingly inappropriate behavior at times, but does anyone really think that any of them would have dumped Caylee in the woods by their house like that? I would bet my right leg that never would or could happen. Who else? Anthony? No, not that investd. The other boyfriends? I do not think so....surely not Jesse, Ricardo....cannot say 100%, but why would he and would she confess to anyone? I think this was an act of hers alone, sloppy, everything last minute, as is her MO and she got lucky that Caylee was not found sooner, when more evidence would have likely been very present.
There is a lot of evidence, and surely more than we know. As I said on another thread, the HAIR in the trunk linked by DNA, is to me the smoking gun thus far.
I love reading all of your posts...
Cheers
xoxo
Heike
written by rebel, Thu 12 Nov 2009 12:23:55 MST
written by Curious Dee, Thu 12 Nov 2009 12:37:41 MST
I need to ask. Where did you find this information about the fingerprint on the syringe? I don't think I've heard about that yet. Please share your source.
written by Krisam, Thu 12 Nov 2009 12:47:28 MST
Curious- I think rebel is speculating about potential evidence not yet released. I don’t think there has been any evidence released about a latent print or DNA evidence. NG would be all over that with every other news media source that has closely covered this case!!!!
Take Care All!!
written by Curious Dee, Thu 12 Nov 2009 12:47:48 MST
Since the car was towed on June 27th, it seems probable that the Ants received a letter from the tow yard very near July 3rd.
Did they know it was reeking with the smell of death then and it was ominous to them that something bad had happened.
I remember reading Cindy said she didn't get the letter until July 15th or the 14th because it was on the front door, yadda yadda yadda and they hadn't used the front door.
I think that was lie #1 for them. I think this is when the cover up began.
written by Curious Dee, Thu 12 Nov 2009 12:55:47 MST
I'm not sure if it's Dr. G's job to testify on evidence. The FBI reported there wasn't any sticker fragments observed so I don't know what to believe. But with the newest revelation that the sticker disappeared while trying to lift a print, I think I have to go with the 1st FBI report...but it sure is squirrelly, especially since it was reported that no pictures were taken either and the report says there was. That's a problem for creditability if you ask me. I would have never questioned the FBI. Hopefully the truth will come out at trial.
written by DebB, Thu 12 Nov 2009 13:22:36 MST
I am no expert but when we read about court cases they always have the coroner there as a expert witness don't they? hmmm
I know what you mean tho about the sticker it seems odd to say the least.
you know it is suspicious about the heart sticker missing and being destroyed what you bet they throw it out , I don't think it really matters to the case all that much because of all that they have tho but who knows it does kinda make you go hmmm about hwo it just disappeared doesnt it. good thoughts Dee makes me think lol
written by DebB, Thu 12 Nov 2009 13:24:17 MST
written by Krisam, Thu 12 Nov 2009 13:37:54 MST
written by Krisam, Thu 12 Nov 2009 13:43:19 MST
http://www.startribune.com/nation/69848767.html
written by Krisam, Thu 12 Nov 2009 13:44:25 MST
written by rebelbelle, Thu 12 Nov 2009 14:39:13 MST
written by Curious Dee, Thu 12 Nov 2009 22:00:53 MST
You're on the right track. I think you are referring to the last doc dump regarding the duct tape/heart sticker.
I'm referring to the doc dump of May 1st (you can check back) it said exactly what I posted above.
The following items were received in the Questioned Documents Unit on December 22, 2008:
ITEMS FROM MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE:
Q62-Q64 Tape
This report contains the results of the questioned document examinations.
Results of Examination;
The Q62 through Q64 pieces of tape were examined for the presence of any stickers. No sticker fragments were observed on these items.
Remarks:
The submitted specimens will be returned under separate cover.
Digital images of specimens Q62 through Q64 are retained.
This was signed by Lorie L. Gottesman of the FBI.
This was in May when Conway said there was "no sticker on the duct tape" and the next doc dump made him look like a liar. I agreed. But IDK now.
Then in the Oct09 doc dump (the one right before this one) The FBI goes in great detail explaining how they tried to lift a print from the sticker residue area and it disipated in the process, thus no proof that it ever existed. It also said no pictures existed or yada yada yada This contradicts the May 1st documents when they say digital images were retained.
I agree, in the big picture, with everything else in place, this might not matter. She should be convicted on just the fact that she was the last person to see Caylee and her daughter's little body was in her trunk. It should be a slam-dunk.
This is just something that I'm going to keep my eye on. It's the FBI, I have to have faith..lol Right?
We don't want another OJ verdict when the defense made it look like they were trying to frame their client.
written by DebB, Thu 12 Nov 2009 22:27:35 MST
Deee keeps making me go hmmm and second guessing everything I think lol now I am so wishy washy lol
written by Curious Dee, Fri 13 Nov 2009 16:42:47 MST
Ur not wishy washy DebB..far from it. You're a normal objective human being which you should be commended.
I think the OJ trial made us all a little wishy washy. Before then, I'd never question the state's witnesses but now I look for discrepancies only because we have access to the reports and I saw how the defense can switch things around. I guess that's what they're paid for and its good for discussion (for us)
written by DebB, Fri 13 Nov 2009 22:12:19 MST
I just cant make up my mind about all this stuff you know?
I get one mindset then I hear anothers and sometimes anothers makes more sense so then I have to go back and pick apart what I think cause it fits lol
I know he spoke at (oj) at the trial for his robbery I know we didn't hear from him at all in the murder of Nicole
I guess I just wish she would take stand you know?
I like your post btw
written by Dewey2Me1MoThyme, Sat 14 Nov 2009 01:37:18 MST
written by stocirpa, Sun 15 Nov 2009 08:00:14 MST
written by A mother, Sun 15 Nov 2009 19:07:01 MST
written by MsCarr, Mon 16 Nov 2009 16:52:09 MST
written by Jeanna, Sat 05 Dec 2009 02:00:34 MST
written by KK, Mon 04 Jan 2010 00:50:07 MST
























I wonder about the dna tho, I believe something n Casey and Caylees dna made them test the brother and father.